The obsolescence of Sura.

[Cluss]

add crit boost to a sura skill, for example blade +10% crit boost wouldnt hurt

 

[sirzento]

add crit boost to a sura skill, for example blade +10% crit boost wouldnt hurt

That would be a pretty small bost as in (10 * crit chance)% more damage but would actually a fitting one. Warrior gets pierce boost and sura crit boost. Warrior was already the class with the most dps and was given a piecre boost to its pretty fair in my eyes but good luck trying to convice the warriors to vote for a damage buff for another class haha

 

[Cluss]

yeah well you cant overbuff it, i am a warrior main and i dont care if sura get dmg boost, its better to boost the weapon sura skills then for example say to lower the 1 hand defence of bosses, then warrior could use this too, but then there is also people ofc only a small ammount but that play bm or mental as main, gg to them

 

[sirzento]

Damn, I did it again and created a suggestion thread for the change of Enchanted Armor: https://global.wom2.com/board/threads/lets-talk-about-enchanted-armor.3174/

 

[LekaNosht]

You make it sound like playing warrior is not even worth it if you need 3x the gear but somehow 80%+ are still playing and recommending warrior only, even for new players who are just super casual.

It's not the same if you do 40%+ more damage then and I bet those investments aren't just pure defensive upgrades but also some pierce and crit here and there. If warrior can get to the same tankyness as sura with more money, can a sura get to the same dps as a good geared warrior with double that investment? I really don't think so.

Ahh thats why most people who want to play pvp are playing wp sura to farm money for pvp gear... oh, wait a minute 💀

Ok, let's say sura doesn't need to invest much to hit the cap but then what? Sura is stuck on his powerlevel while warrior can still improve his gear and tankyness while outputing waay more damage as sura because his berserk attack speed buff + pierce bonus and his ability to wield two handed weapons on horse.
If you get to the point where both don't die anymore, there is 0 advantages anymore for sura. And before that, whats the upside if a warrior can kill for example a lv 80 metin in 20s but dies at lv 90 metin but sura doesn't die at lv 90 metin but takes over 1 minute to kill? I wouldn't want to grind those metins as sura and would just go back down to a lv 80 one ifI can kill those in 30s+.

Just ask yourself, what class would you play to farm your pvp gear? Warrior or Sura? With that logic it must be a sura since you don't even need to invest in gear since you hit your gear cap way sooner.

You know this game isn't a pvp sweat game where pve is just a small part you do if you get bored? You still need to farm all of your cool pvp gear to even do pvp and guess what class is the best one in terms of farming? I don't see lv 40-60 warriors need to invest 3x the gear to speed farm. And for endgame farming, I even get recommendet to play warrior as a second account because I wont get endgame runs done because sura doesn't do enough damage. Something isn't adding up here. I feel like there are just many "warrior andy's" who fear that they don't hard dominate anymore if another class got buffed.

Don't forgett about the "hidden DPS buff" to warriors
Yes, there is a "hidden" buff to warrios with the name of berserk skill.
Let's imagine there is a warrior and a sura who both have the same equipment and do both exactly 1,000 damage per hit. The warrior has berserk P so he gets a 62% attack speed (write if I got that value wrong) buff.
The sura has 125% attack speed and the warrior has 187%.
That value multiplied with the hit damage will give us a dps of sura 1,250dps and warrior 1,870dps.

Warriors do 620 more dps and thats totaly fine.

Now both classes are activating there damage buff skill, the warrior gets 680 AV and the Sura 630 AV.
hit damage bumps to sura 1630 and warrior 1680. In dps numbers that means sura 2,037 dps and warrior 3,141 dps.

The dps difference got increased from 620dps to 1,104dps even both classes got nearly the same AV bonus.

But now we play on WoM2 where you will use a pet wich grants you more attack value and also choose the attack value from the last bio quest.
In total thats 600 more attack value but its fair since both the sura and the warrior will get that bonus right?
Lets see, sura will now do 2,230 hit damage and the warrior 2,280 hit damage.
In dps terms that would be sura 2,787dps and warrior 4,263dps.

Let's say since sura is very tanky and did take the attack value bonus from the 2 bio quests before that and the warrior did take the defensive ones.
The sura would do now 2,530 damage per hit => 3,162dps.

The warrior would still do ~35% more damage but the warrior now has 700 more def as the sura. Enchanted armor P with 150 def wouldn't make much difference.
And sure, sura has 30% less phys damage taken from fear but I would says 700 more def is also a pretty big phys damage decrease.
I don't say that warrior is to strong or needs a nerv, it's just something I wanted to point out.



I also don't know how to balance sura and I know that sura shouldn't do as much damage as a warrior but seeing that warrior skills got buffed while sura fear and dispel (while this is a purely pvp change) got nerved is just strange to me. A class should be as good that an experienced player would look at all the classes and think "They are all good options to play for pvp and pve". Even mage got buffed so much that it outdamages sura because no one really played that class outside of just being a buff for the main char.

Im glad someone did the math. Sadly even though this has been an active topic for months devs don't think it needs attention. I was kinda angry about it last year when i played actively and the suggestion here on forum got alot of attention and upvotes. No matter devs didn't take part in it so i just started spaming replies each week to see if anyone actually looks at the forum. So after some month the final respons was closing the discussion. 🙏
Hope this time sth happens but not gonna rely

 

[sirzento]

Im glad someone did the math.

Yeah the math wasn't 100% right there since I didn't know that you can't take the same type of reward in the 3 bio quests so warrior won't have more def but the sura also just get the same AV bonus as the warrior. (But healer mage still outdamage sura somehow?)

For now let's just try to get a change on enchanted armor going and after that we still can see if sura needs something else or not.

 

[lilrock]

We have many posts regarding Sura's state but without any replies or actions, unfortunately.

 

[AndreeaM]

As an ex-weapon sura pvm player myself, I can also chime in with my thoughts.
I ended up switching to healer shaman pvm, not just because of the slight damage edge it has over sura, but because of 2 other immense reasons that came even before the damage for me:

Firstly, the insane movement speed boost that makes farming so much smoother and more streamlined. Every time I go back on my sura for farming-related BP quests, it feels like such a slog and I can't wait for it to be over and to get back on my shamy. Though maybe this point isn't exclusive to sura as warrior doesn't have a move speed buff anymore, but gameplay still feels extremely slow when you add my 2nd point on top.

Secondly, and most importantly, the fact that nature's enchant stays on even when switching channels. This alone is my nr1 reason by far, because I am an avid metin farmer and it makes it so much less convoluted when I don't have to put on my blade/aura every time. This doesn't hit warriors as bad because they can just put aura on, but on sura you feel obligated to do the "int bug" (int snapshotting for ench blade), so having to constantly switch between the int set and my regular pvm set constitutes an immense slowdown. I think this is one of the changes that would help sura a lot, keep blade on even when changing channels.

The enchanted armor discussion is a good start. It needs a change because I ended up resetting it and grabbing one of the other skills and I haven't felt much difference in my tankiness, so something needs to change there.

Then I feel like the change I mentioned in my second point would be a good second step afterwards. To be fair to everyone, I think both sura and warrior should get this change (to keep blade/aura on when changing ch), since it would still be of bigger help to sura because of the aforementioned int set switching. It would help immensely with the percieved slowness, especially in cases where ch switching happens fast (metin/boss farming) and would also not make warrior players feel disadvantaged.

 

[LekaNosht]

We have many posts regarding Sura's state but without any replies or actions, unfortunately.

Yup thats the real issue for me. Alot of ppl are bringing these stuff up as problems and yet devs decide that there are no problems which is amazing for me. I mean when there posts about these stuff regularly why arent we doing anything about this. I don't want to switch to Warrior because ppl here randomly decided that its fair to give him double the dmg compared to other classes. If the reason he deals that much dmg is "balanced" by the fact that berserk increases incoming dmg just remove that debuff and tune down the dmg a bit so its still more than sura but not so high.

 

[LekaNosht]

I've lost count how many times random players pm me: "delete sura go warrior

 

[sirzento]

We got new information. In my suggestion about Enchanted Armor, a dev told us:

Hi,

Thank you for sharing your concerns. As mentioned previously, we’re developing a new system to better balance classes and races, which is still in its skeleton phrase. This will take some time, as we’re currently focusing on other priorities, but please rest assured that these topics remain very much on our minds.

Warm wishes,
Essence.

That tells us there isn't just balancing around some numbers but a whole new system about class skills comming. It seems big enough that there are even multiple stages and its currently in just a skeleton stage. It seems like this update will be a hit or miss in terms of balancing.
But since they told us that "This will take some time, as we're currently focusing on ther priorities", my best guess would be that this will come in at minimum 6 month, since semingly small changes already can takes month till we can see them ingame.

Since is was said that this was already mentioned somewhere, has someone more information about this?

Edit:
Seems like a month ago this system didn't even existed as metioned here:

As for an official answer from us: there aren’t any planned changes to races in the near future. However, we do intend to introduce a more intricate and specific system down the line that should help bring better balance to some classes in both PvP and PvM. But I can’t make any promises on this, and it’s not something that will be coming in the immediate future.

 

[Moozak]

What exactly is Sura lacking?

• My guess would be that something if off with the damage if even a healer mage can outdamage Sura.
• Or is he not tanky enough to justify doing so little damage?

Sura is lacking in single target damage (metins and bosses )

I mean yes ... with sura you can rush to beta with items of about 5 to 10kkk but that will do you no good as you make less yang /h than a naaga farmer ...

For a sura to be better than the aformentioned naaga farmer you need to invest 40kkk give or take and by that point.. investing in a war would give you 30 or 40 % more ROI

On this server there is no incentive in rushing to the endgame ( rushing being suras speciality ) as the farms are pretty balanced. Because of that people preffer to stay at lv 60 for a very long time.

In adittion to this, Suras also struggle in dungeons as most runs are balanced to require a warrior's dmg with pretty decent items ...
You need a vaslty supperior set as a sura to to reach the minimum required dps of a run.

 

[Azarthal]

Nerf sura

 

[LekaNosht]

Nerf sura

At this point why not

 

[sirzento]

Nerf sura

yeah the 37% phys damage reduction on fear is way to much. They already halfed the arrow dodge on fear so it only makes sense to also half phys reduction because 37% is just way to much on top of armor reduction

 

[LekaNosht]

yeah the 37% phys damage reduction on fear is way to much. They already halfed the arrow dodge on fear so it only makes sense to also half phys reduction because 37% is just way to much on top of armor reduction

another good idea is to make blade give only lifesteal and remove atck completely. Only lifesteal and Sp regen for example

 

[sirzento]

To get back to the damage thing, I looked into all the formulas on how hit damage is calculated and got some informations to show:

Warrior scales very good with average damage.
I did draw some graphs to show the difference between warrior and sura.

[Blue] Sura with P Blade (int>str>vit>dex)
[Red] Warrior with P Aura (str>vit>dex>int)
Sword+9 into FMS+9 into Poison+9
Both with +12 into main stat from some item

0% avg



50% avg



Warrior has X% more hit damage than Sura:
- ~33% more at lv. 30
- ~24% more at Lv. 75
- ~22% more at Lv. 105

And thats just from the difference of how aura and blade works. I didn't know a Lv. 73 warrior with fms+9 50 avg does the same on hit damage than a Lv. 75 sura with poison+9 50 avg.
And additionally, if enemies have magic resistance, sura's damage numbers do go even further down.

I just want to point out that +600 dmg from enchanted blade isn't the same as +600 dmg from aura.

Edit:
If you want to play around yourself or want to check my math, here is the link to the graph. Use the two sliders on the left side to control avg and main stat values: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/bbpofocafk

 

[LekaNosht]

To get back to the damage thing, I looked into all the formulas on how hit damage is calculated and got some informations to show:

Warrior scales very good with average damage.
I did draw some graphs to show the difference between warrior and sura.

[Blue] Sura with P Blade (int>vit>str>dex)
[Red] Warrior with P Aura (str>vit>dex>int)
Sword+9 into FMS+9 into Poison+9
Both with +12 into main stat from some item

0% avg

View attachment 2913

50% avg

View attachment 2914

Warrior has X% more hit damage than Sura:
- ~35% more at lv. 30
- ~31% more at Lv. 75
- ~22% more at Lv. 105

And thats just from the difference of how aura and blade works. I didn't know a Lv. 66 warrior with fms+9 50 avg does the same on hit damage than a Lv. 75 sura with poison+9 50 avg.
And additionally, if enemies have magic resistance, sura's damage numbers do go even further down.

I just want to point out that +600 dmg from enchanted blade isn't the same as +600 dmg from aura.

As far as im conserned for best performance on sura stats shoul be int>str>vit maybe that will make alot of difference in the calculations that you gave here.

 

[sirzento]

As far as im conserned for best performance on sura stats shoul be int>str>vit maybe that will make alot of difference in the calculations that you gave here.

You are right. I updated the post and changed the images/numbers. Everything under lv 88 changed a bit in favor to sura:

 

[foliasjoshi]

You are right. I updated the post and changed the images/numbers. Everything under lv 88 changed a bit in favor to sura:

I respect your hustle man, you got some nice ideas and you actually provide a detailed reasoning behind them, but im sorry that i have to bring the news to you (or maybe you can already see/feel it): They just dont care. They are a small team and actually got some unique ideas like the fishing update or the mining update, etc (not saying good updates, but unique at least). They are making a decent living off of this i imagine, so you have to keep the addicts here. 95% of the player base playing warrior. You probably didnt play back then, but they destroyed poly ninja because it was competing with the warriors in efficiency. For the same reason they keep the sura on the low. If you buff sura and it becomes just 1% more efficient than the warrior in late game.. Oh boy.
I saw u got the answer "we are working on that, but its only in the skeleton phase, we have other things to do". Sweet summer child.. I hope you got a lot of patience and I hope they prove me wrong, but that means maybe they will take a look at it like in 2027, early 2028.
You got some nice ideas, you should write some nice and detailed micro transaction idea for them (im not joking lol), watch how quickly they implement that or something similar.
All the best soldier, you got a long journey in front of you!