The obsolescence of Sura.
- Thread starter darkvader
- Start date
What Sura lacks, in the simplest way to put it is, ADEQUATE compensation for the DPS trade-off.
Either pump the damage up or compensate elsewhere. Be it in survivability or damage.
Tanking is not the issue in this game, as majority of tanking is via dodge/evasion and not raw def itself.
The issue has always been clear times and raw farming potential as that is what determines income. If the warrior can clear content 30-40% faster than sura or more, then tankiness isn't the issue. Berserk adds a HUGE value to farmers without having to invest elsewhere like Green L or 8% att speed bonuses wherever possible.
The issue is that 2 defensive skills on sura do jack **** majority of the time because they're either nerfed or deemed useless after BIO bonuses.
Even in low lv, suras are just too slow to justify the money spent.
You do not get rewarded for investing in them.
People talking about : AAH SURAS have more survivability. Where. Any farmer can tank what a sura tanks the exact same way with minor tweaks in dodge/evasion. The fact that Sura fear evasion is LESS than a boot bonus is absurd, yet BERSERK feeds warriors over 55% att speed which is effectively over 5 times the max bonus available.
It just makes no sense whatsoever. Build sura for what? So i can tank 3 more hits in mid level content BUT be much much slower when it counts? Doing bosses and metins which are the cornerstone of farming? Please... The flaws are obvious already and patches have been consistently shitting on Sura. But some genius decided to keep buffing Warriors as if their lives depend on it.
Make it make sense.
TL
R , im not advocating for a warrior nerf, i'm only asking that changes take place so that building sura doesnt mean you're shooting yourself in the foot. The class has no advantages over warrior in any department with monetary value. Why should warrior, that already have access to the strongest weaps besides bows, benefit from the strongest steroid in the game that increases DPS, as well as other QoL bonuses like move speed , WHILE also outdamaging every single class and tanking effectively the same ? Give Sura something to make it even remotely worth building other than aesthetics and preference.
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sirzento
Member
I mean warriors could still use Green L or att speed bonuses for even more dps. I don't think there is a single warrior that doesn't use green potions because he thinks that he already has enough attack speed.
Totally forgott about that. 40% more damage together with ms buff from berserk = 40% more income on average. Sure, you need more expensive gear to be as tanky as sura but with that extra income you will get that money faster. But for a sura, its not possible to do as much damage as a warrior with more expensive gear.
Edit:
There is also this Enchanted Blade changes? where we don't even know if enchanted blades life steal got changed/nerfed or not. I asked a dev about that and he told me that they will look into it but no answer so far.
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SorryForBeingBad
New member
Part of the reason why not more people are playing could be the nerfs to fear, but I think the prelevance of warriors is also due to a more game design nature. I'm not at endgame yet, my highest character is lvl 90 (sura), and I also have a lvl 75 warrior; but a lot of progress in this game is dictated by how much DPS you have, beating stones is more or less a DPS check in most areas, Lost King's Treasure maps are also DPS checks, Death Reaper is a dps check, Naaga again a DPS check due to the timed nature, lots of bosses don't hit hard enough, they just have tons of HP and HP Regen, so yet again a dps check( for example Dark Leader). The only places where I felt I had some advantages playing sura were in SD2/SD3 and HL1/2, but the time I spent there is miniscule compared to the rest of the activities which are DPS checks.
Without adding more variety to this game such as requiring skill dmg in some places (such as bosses which are very susceptible to skill dmg but high defense against physical), or places where survivability is the priority number one (places such as SD2/3), I don't think other classes besides warrior will be played much. There needs to be a reason to play something other than the class with the most DPS, which the warrior should still remain as it's within the class identity to be a damage monster, just as it is within the sura's to be the balanced but slightly more tanky counterpart.
Without adding more variety to this game such as requiring skill dmg in some places (such as bosses which are very susceptible to skill dmg but high defense against physical), or places where survivability is the priority number one (places such as SD2/3), I don't think other classes besides warrior will be played much. There needs to be a reason to play something other than the class with the most DPS, which the warrior should still remain as it's within the class identity to be a damage monster, just as it is within the sura's to be the balanced but slightly more tanky counterpart.
IDemonI
Well-known member
It couldnt even tank my character deletion code when i realised how crap it was
DeCiMaToR
Active member
Just to quickly throw it out there, berserk does not increase movement speed, only attack speed + pierce boost.
But yes, the issue is also that suras don't get any value at bosses, as from my knowledge they receive the same damage as warriors, since their skills counteract regular mobs but no skill damage for example (correct me if I'm wrong).
I think the main issue is, as mentioned already, the fact that the upside of tanking really only applies to sd2/3 and HL1/2 where they truly have it easier, in every other aspect they are definitely weaker, or well, let's say it is easier for them to farm stones, but it is also not hard to get the appropriate equipment for warriors if they know what to invest into, so the tradeoff in terms of lower DPS is not really worth it.
I understand the issue, however, that it is hard to balance, so the game doesn't get free by just playing sura. It is a fine line, anything under and suras are not really worth to play, anything above and sura is too strong.
But yes, the issue is also that suras don't get any value at bosses, as from my knowledge they receive the same damage as warriors, since their skills counteract regular mobs but no skill damage for example (correct me if I'm wrong).
I think the main issue is, as mentioned already, the fact that the upside of tanking really only applies to sd2/3 and HL1/2 where they truly have it easier, in every other aspect they are definitely weaker, or well, let's say it is easier for them to farm stones, but it is also not hard to get the appropriate equipment for warriors if they know what to invest into, so the tradeoff in terms of lower DPS is not really worth it.
I understand the issue, however, that it is hard to balance, so the game doesn't get free by just playing sura. It is a fine line, anything under and suras are not really worth to play, anything above and sura is too strong.
I get it , however majority of money-making such as dungeons, metins, low-mid lv farming and whatnot , as mentioned by other players as well, is a DPS check. Heck, most of the farming is a DPS check because the faster you kill the easier you survive. Best way to clear SD2-3 is by oneshotting spiders and having evasion, not being able to "tank" , as even 800 def ain't gonna cut it.
While suras were getting nerfed, warriors were getting pierce boost as if Berserk was weak or something. I say give something back to sura because the identity is lost. You master 3 skills which their job is PVM and one of them (enchanted armour) is dog poop. Dog poop and outdated. If they can come with with pierce boost for berserk they can definitely come up with something to make Sura not feel depressing and sluggish to play.
While suras were getting nerfed, warriors were getting pierce boost as if Berserk was weak or something. I say give something back to sura because the identity is lost. You master 3 skills which their job is PVM and one of them (enchanted armour) is dog poop. Dog poop and outdated. If they can come with with pierce boost for berserk they can definitely come up with something to make Sura not feel depressing and sluggish to play.
sirzento
Member
Do you remember when they removed the "you take more damage" debuff on berserk for a while? That was also a funny idea to make warrior even better haha
Damage is the most important stat in the game, even if sura gets a flat 25% average damage boost, warrior will still be 10% to 15% more dps. And since dps is more important in 95% of the games content, warrior would still be the better choice to play. But yes, its very hard to balance.
I don't know about differend scaling with boss enemies but yes fear only applies to physical damage.
On every boss or map where the mobs do mostly magic/elemental damage, sura will take about the same damage as a warrior. On those mobs playing sura would be absolutely useless if compared against warrior.
What happens if sura would get updated/buffed?
I would guess half of the warrior playerbase would cry out that sura would be way to OP now while at the same time no one would switch class because warrior would still be a better money maker, dps checker, farmer than sura. I would say if half of the warrior players would cry out, then sura would be at a balanced state since they would most likely think that sura is now an good alternative to warrior and they fear that another class could be better than warrior where they already invest a big chunk of time.
But now there is the question why WoM would even buff sura if that would upset like half of there playerbase? Yeah, I really don't think they would. It would be a pretty bad move from the view of a team who wants to make a profit from the server.
What buff could sura get?
I will just throw in some
An easy fix would be to give enchanted armor some scaling. Enchanted armor is pretty nice when you hit M1 to get a good amount of armor compared to the armor you have at that level but when you reach endgame where armor values will quickly reach 1000+, the buff provided by enchanted armor isn't that great anymore. It was designed when the best armor you could get was the lv 66 ones with a maximum defense of 144 and without those 200/500/700 defense bio quests.
So how about adding a 25% armor scaling to the skill
I don't know how strong this change would be but what if we change fear to do just regular damage reduction and not just physical? This would enable sura to be also tanky against such enemies and not just physical ones. Idk but it just doesn't sounds fair if a major class propertie is being tanky but losing damage and then take the same damage as every other class from such enemies while still doing way less damage. This change could also be conditioned to not effect pvp since such a big damage reduction against skills looks even op in my eyes.sirzento said:
That's a hard one. Sura should definetly do less damage than a warrior but how much less would be a good amount if most of the game is balanced around having the best dps? Currently, warrior does ~50% more DPS while even ignoring 2 handed weapons and the pierce boost if both choose the AV from the last bio quest. (35% more if sura choose AV at every bio quest). And I think thats way to much if damage is just a waaay more important stat than survivability. Stacking damage is even way more harder than stacking defenses in gear. What's the upside of sura if a warrior also doesn't die anymore if you invest a good amount of money into the gear? I think there needs to be a damage up somewhere for sura but I don't know a buff that wouldn't just enrage the whole community. Simple one would just be a higher number on enchanted blade or just a plain avg damage stat as extra bonus, as long as warrior still does more damage. I other MMOs I would just say more AOE attacks would be a good addition to a class that should be weaker as a 1v1 powerhouse while still needing a buff but here in metin this doesn't make much sense.
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D
Deleted member 2771
Guest
I've been playing sura lately and to be fair is absolute ass i would never chose it as an end game farmer for stones or beta bosses. The only thing that the Sura does for me is make Razador a piece of cake without investing in crazy items , (i have 30 fire resist, cl1-3 alchemy) and Meley, btw a warrior will never survive this with the same investment which is a big + for a Sura.
On another point as Cluss mentioned i have never seen a maxed out Sura(maybe i haven't looked hard enough) Meaning someone to invest in sura make it full like most people do with warrior, all the sura players i know just have the bare minimum. Now if this is the case i dont know how can players complain that they are getting out classed and as mentioned on other topics previously, every class has its own purpose. Its bound to be different and it cant be the same. If you put both classes with the bare minimum a sura can do more then a warrior can, simple as that. Now its true that a good geared warrior will outperform but getting good geared and full for end game content is not easy and shouldn't be an excuse for sura players to use that as a way out if they are playing with the bare minimum.
But in some aspects i do agree a sura should have some tweaks introduced for end game content but nothing too crazy since it already has a purpose and excels at what it was meant to do
On another point as Cluss mentioned i have never seen a maxed out Sura(maybe i haven't looked hard enough) Meaning someone to invest in sura make it full like most people do with warrior, all the sura players i know just have the bare minimum. Now if this is the case i dont know how can players complain that they are getting out classed and as mentioned on other topics previously, every class has its own purpose. Its bound to be different and it cant be the same. If you put both classes with the bare minimum a sura can do more then a warrior can, simple as that. Now its true that a good geared warrior will outperform but getting good geared and full for end game content is not easy and shouldn't be an excuse for sura players to use that as a way out if they are playing with the bare minimum.
But in some aspects i do agree a sura should have some tweaks introduced for end game content but nothing too crazy since it already has a purpose and excels at what it was meant to do
sirzento
Member
What do you compare here? No one is comparing a weak geared sura against a good geared warrior.
If both are maxed out the warrior will always do up to 40% more damage. Your last sentence makes it sounds like that sura always has an edge on warrior and its very hard for a warrior to get good gear to outperform a sura? That's exactly the reason why sura needs a buff. Warrior can invest into gear to not die like sura from early to endgame but a sura can't just invest into gear to do as much damage as a warrior. Even a sura needs good gear to work in endgame. Sure, he doesn't die as fast but what is it worth if you need 3min to destroy a stone? And I don't want that sura has the possibility to do as much damage as a warrior, I just mean sura should do a little more damage than now.
Sounds like sura has an edge here but it isn't. If you compare it, a bare minimum warrior is ~40% fast at destroing stones or doing bossing. If the bare minimum warrior can, for example, destroy a lv 80 metin in 1min but dies at a lv 90 metin, a sura needs 1m40s for the lv 80 metin and sure, the sura could tank the lv 90 metin and maybe destroy it but would that be even worth if this would take him 4min? I wouldn't count that as "can do more" if he can technically do it but its just never worth it.
Don't tell me you just mean doing Razador.
I started playing on this server together with a friend of mine. He is a warrior and I am a sura and currently we both do/farm the same metins. He has problems at the next metin where I only struggle just a bit but I also don't farm them because I need nearly 2x the time destroying them as the ones we both farm and he won't have any problems going to the next higher metins soon because he can destroy the metins 40% faster than me so he also generates way more currency to up his gear.
Yeah thats also what I think. Better scaling rather than just pure stats as a buff so you don't rush P skills to get all the new stats at an early level.
D
Deleted member 2771
Guest
I'm not gonna argue with you here, i said Sura needs some tweaks for end game content but what you don't seem to get is that Sura isn't meant for damage. They should nerf his defences if they buff the dmg so that you will need to invest in items same like a warrior does and not farm with crap items never bothering if you die or not
And what im getting at is, a Sura should have close damage to a warrior but keep all its other perks? Or you want the other perks to be removed but just to have a slight edge in damage?
How is this a reason for a buff??? You can survive anywhere with the sura with totally crap items which gives you and advantage over a warrior who has to invest in the items to do it. If you wanna make the damage balanced the only way i see is that the sura gets a buff in dmg but then a nerf in defences so you invest the same that a warrior does. But then again what will the class Sura stand for if its just gonna be a copy paste of Warrior?
And what im getting at is, a Sura should have close damage to a warrior but keep all its other perks? Or you want the other perks to be removed but just to have a slight edge in damage?
Hell no, the class is fine as it stands. The problem with weapon sura is that tweaking it even a little bit risks making the class too powerful, both pvm and pvp. Just did some tests and weapon sura is only around 15-20 seconds slower at breaking a stone than a warrior, with far less inferior equipment (literally not even matching element). IMO it is perfect for casual players who want to chill, lay back and just mindlessly break stones around the map. If you want to do higher content, you need both, sura and warrior.
I would however suggest a rework for Enchanted Armor, as it stands it is just like equipping another empty piece of armor, and at max level it doesn't make that much of a difference.
I would however suggest a rework for Enchanted Armor, as it stands it is just like equipping another empty piece of armor, and at max level it doesn't make that much of a difference.
sirzento
Member
A warrior can invest into gear to do the same as a sura but the sura can't invest into gear to do the same as a warrior. Damage has no limit and more = better but defense has a cap, if you don't die anymore than you will still don't die with better gear.
No not close to a warrior, just not a 40%+ gap in dps. In my eyes a class that is ment to be one of the most powerfull pvm classes with 3 buff skills shouldn't be outdamaged in pvm by heal mages.
Yeah balancing in general is pretty hard. I don't say "Sura is way to weak! He needs double the damage", just a tad more damage while reworking his enchanted armor skill.
Whats the total time that was needed to break the stone? Its a big diff if the time was 1m vs 5m if the diff is only 20s.
Jup, I just took a look into the past:
5 years after the release of metin 2, if you had been the giga chad with the best gear possible, you would have:
Armor 144
Stone 15
Shield 153
Helmet 79
Shoes 15
Bio 60
466 def in total. Enchanted Armor at P did provide you with 150 extra def, thats 32% extra armor from a P skill, thats pretty good. Thats how the skill was balanced back then.
Now I took a look into WoM2 gear:
Armor 310
Stone 50
Shield 256
Helmet 116
Shoes 32
Bio 200/500/700
With deff bio 1: 964 deff. Enchanted Armor would provide ~15% extra armor.
With deff bio 2: 1264 deff. Enchanted Armor would provide ~12% extra armor.
With deff bio 3: 1464 deff. Enchanted Armor would provide ~10% extra armor.
Enchanted armor lost its power from 32% to (15-10)% since back then.
Call me crazy but what if we just remove the flat armor stat and replace it with an scaling "% extra armor" value? That would scale from early to endgame pretty nice and if future updates like a higher level cap comes with even better armors, the skill wouldn't need to be touched since it will just scale.
Or maybe something compleatly new like "X% of your armor also provides damage reduction against magic damage".
PS: I really hope that those ultra boosted bio defense stats don't only exists to give warrior enough defense that he can grind in the endgame. That would be pretty lame. Also, why is the increase from the AV reward 100/200/300 (+100%/+50%) but defense scales 200/500/700 (+150%/+71%)?
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Deleted member 2771
Guest
So Sura should invest in nothing but have better dmg?
We just did tests on Beta Stones with a Sura and a Warrior, and the sura takes around 30 seconds longer to kill the stone with no elemental resistances or arrow resistance(dodge) on items. The warrior had the necessary items and also has CL5 Alchemy and Nemere Earrings +9 with 3x +6 stones on the weapon and Monster Belt +9, while the Sura had Soul Crystal Earrings no Monster Belt and a mix of Cl3-Cl1 alchemy with no +6 Stone on Weapon. So on top of all this, the sura not needing any kind of resistance the warrior being maxed out and the difference to be half a minute the Sura should get a buff?
SorryForBeingBad
New member
I don't think anyone here is advocating for a MASSIVE buff or rework, the main goal is to make other classes besides warrior more attractive, this would make it so that people are more inclined to have alts of many classes, which in turn leads to players being more engaged long-term, which leads to a more healthy playebase and ultimately more money towards the developers, as it is a bussiness after all.
To chime on this a bit, I think you can only choose one type of bio reward at each level from what someone told on discord, so if for example at lvl 92 you choose def then you can't choose def as well on 94 and 96. If anyone knows if this is how it is for sure let us know, don't wanna spread false information around.
sirzento
Member
How long took it to destroy the stone in total? You only list defensive stats but do both characters also have good offensice stats?
But why is everyone playing warrior if sura is only a bit worse damage wise but has so much more defense and can run with crap gear in endgame? That sounds like a class everyone wants to play.
Yes. Its strange that 90% of the player are playing warrior while arguing that everything is balanced. If 90% of the players are playing the same class, there is something very wrong balancing wise.
Oh really?
D
Deleted member 2771
Guest
Thats true, you can chose 1 option only and it can't be repetead. So example HP at 92 DEF at 94 ATT at 96
I clearly stated the stuff that the warrior had and what the sura had, also the sura didnt use the INT trick so it can be even better then that
sirzento
Member
Then I assume both where using the lv 105 weapon and both had comparable crit and pierce?
First time I heared about that. Whats the int trick and does this work with other stats too?
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SorryForBeingBad
New member
I think they're referring to buff "snapshotting", don't know other names from it but for example druid in WoW is similar. Basically let's say you have some shield which gives you 12 int, and another shield which has 12 str. The idea is to equip the shield with 12 INT, use the buffs which scale with INT, and then switch to a better shield, this way the buffs that are active will have the stats at the time that you had the 12 INT shield equipped, once the buffs are active, even if you have less INT that stronger one from the time you had the 12 INT shield equiped remains.
(the shield is just an example, this works with equip, alchemy etc)
sirzento
Member
That sounds like bug using and not a "trick" haha I wouldn't count that as a feature tbh 😅
That sounds even more like something that needs to be fixed
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