Class Identity and PVE Balance: Preserving WoM’s Old-Style Essence

[Synesthesia]

Hello everyone, Community and Staff members.

I am writing this post not to criticize blindly, but to offer a constructive reflection from someone who has actively played, promoted, and supported WoM for over three years, firmly believing in the potential of this project.
Lately, we have been witnessing a gradual shift away from the core identity of a true hard farm / old style server. The original appeal of Metin2 and what made WoM stand out in the first place was the clear specialization and identity of each class:

- Sura Weaponary: The absolute backbone of tanking, essential for surviving high-tier maps at the cost of lower overall damage output.

- Warrior: The primary baseline for pure DPS on foot or horseback.

- Ninja and Shaman: Classes with strong pvp or support identities, capable of competing in pvm only with specialized setups or under specific conditions.

Today, this balance feels severely compromised. While enabling all classes to enjoy PVE content is an understandable goal, the way it has been implemented has caused noticeable imbalances:


1. Devaluation of the Sura Weaponary: As tanking high-level content has become easily achievable across other classes, the Sura Weaponary has lost its core purpose in the endgame, rendering it almost non-existent at higher levels.

2. The DPS Discrepancy (Ninja/Shaman vs. Warrior): Due to adjustments in mob/metinstone defenses (dagger and bell resistances) and the mechanics of polymorph (hit rate and attack speeds), ninjas and shamans currently deal disproportionately high damage. In many cases, a ninja or shaman can easily out-damage a warrior in endgame maps, even with inferior alchemy and equipment.

3. Chasing the Meta: When PVE efficiency shifts dramatically, players no longer choose classes based on playstyle preference or traditional roles. Instead, they feel forced to repeatedly roll whatever class is currently overtuned just to keep up with farm efficiency.

This dilutes the experience for players who joined WoM specifically for that nostalgic, tactical, old-style progression. In my daily interactions with the community, this is one of the most frequent concerns raised by both returning veterans and new players alike.

The goal of this thread is not to advocate for nerfs, but to invite an open discussion about restoring clarity and linear balance to gameplay:

1- Re-establishing the Warrior as the primary standard for pure native DPS.
2- Restoring purpose and value to the Sura Weaponary's tanking.
3- Rebalancing Polymorph scaling and metinstones resistances to prevent support or pvp-oriented classes from trivializing dedicated PVE classes.

WoM has a great foundation, and preserving class identity is essential to keeping the server's core identity alive. I hope this serves as a helpful perspective for the Staff and the community moving forward.

 

[zizzzzzz]

Hi,

Interesting take on those aspects. I agree with weaponry sura being a weaker choice for most of the pvm aspects of the game, but don't forget it's also one of the best pvp classes, especially for 1v1. I'd love seeing it get some attention for late game pve content.
However, what I disagree with is disabling class diversity in end game just for the sake of numbers. Warrior already excels in most parts of the PVE content.

"This dilutes the experience for players who joined WoM specifically for that nostalgic, tactical, old-style progression. In my daily interactions with the community, this is one of the most frequent concerns raised by both returning veterans and new players alike"
-> most players who join barely get to reach the end game content that you are referring to as being unbalanced across classes. I've seen plenty of mage mains quit and start warriors because they offer they widest and most advantageous pve experience at least until lv 90.

Polymorph scaling was already adjusted once, I might be biased but it would hurt even more to see it nerfed again. If really necessary, dagger/arrow/bell/fan resistances should see tweaks, not polymorph itself. Keep in mind that farming while polymorphed requires additional costs and always comes with the risk of losing marbles upon death. There is also a limit to the utility of farming while polymorphed, it's not the way to go for all scenarios

 

[Synesthesia]

Hi,

Interesting take on those aspects. I agree with weaponry sura being a weaker choice for most of the pvm aspects of the game, but don't forget it's also one of the best pvp classes, especially for 1v1. I'd love seeing it get some attention for late game pve content.
However, what I disagree with is disabling class diversity in end game just for the sake of numbers. Warrior already excels in most parts of the PVE content.

"This dilutes the experience for players who joined WoM specifically for that nostalgic, tactical, old-style progression. In my daily interactions with the community, this is one of the most frequent concerns raised by both returning veterans and new players alike"
-> most players who join barely get to reach the end game content that you are referring to as being unbalanced across classes. I've seen plenty of mage mains quit and start warriors because they offer they widest and most advantageous pve experience at least until lv 90.

Polymorph scaling was already adjusted once, I might be biased but it would hurt even more to see it nerfed again. If really necessary, dagger/arrow/bell/fan resistances should see tweaks, not polymorph itself. Keep in mind that farming while polymorphed requires additional costs and always comes with the risk of losing marbles upon death. There is also a limit to the utility of farming while polymorphed, it's not the way to go for all scenarios

Thanks for the civil reply and for sharing your perspective! You bring up some fair points, but I think there are a few key nuances worth clarifying regarding the endgame experience:

PVP vs PVE trade-off: while sura weapon is decent in 1v1 PVP, wom is inherently an hard-farm server. When a player chooses a sura weapon, they do so with the expectation of playing the ultimate tanking PVE class. Sacrificing its core identity in high-level PVE just because it holds its own in 1v1 PVP doesn't fit the progression design of a farm-heavy server.

Early/Mid-Game vs Endgame : It's true that Warriors perform very well up to level 90. However, the core issue lies specifically in the endgame content (like Enchanted Forest). The problem arises when a player invests heavily in a warrior for years, only to reach the endgame and find that a ninja or shaman even with lower-tier alchemy can easily out-damage them due to low metin resistances (dagger/bell) and polymorph hit scaling. Progression should reward long-term investment, not make your class feel secondary at the finish line.

The cost of poly: while marbles do carry a cost and a minor risk of dying, the return on investment at endgame farming far outweighs those minor expenses. When the damage output gap between a transformed ninja and a grounded warrior becomes this wide, polymorphing stops being a "niche option" and becomes the mandatory meta.

How to fix it: I actually agree with you regarding how to address this. The goal isn't necessarily to destroy poly itself, but rather to increase metin resistances (dagger/bell) so that raw class scaling feels linear and fair again across all stages of the game.

Diversity is great, but every class should excel in its intended role rather than forcing players to switch mains at level 100+ just to remain competitive.

 

[Nocturyton]

Me war me stronk uga buga uga
+1

 

[Synesthesia]

Me war me stronk uga buga uga
+1

I appreciate the "+1" and i know you're probably just being ironic, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea here. I'm not asking for a server where everyone plays warrior. I want a server that actually respects the true core of Metin2.
Boosting classes so they're all somewhat viable in PVE is fine, but ninja and shaman should still be strictly inferior in terms of raw PVE DPS compared to a body warrior or sura weaponary.
I’ve had a level 105 PVP ninja for over a year now, and I’ve never even entertained the thought of making a PVE set for it the mere thought of following a meta like that makes me sick.
WOM2 was perfect in the early days. I even started playing there as a mental warrior just to see how hard the grind could be! Eventually, I switched to sura weaponary realized at level 105 that it wasn't cutting it anymore, and moved to body warrior.. now, finding out that ninjas and shamans out-DPS Warriors? Man, that’s just embarrassing. We aren't playing an FPS where we have to constantly chase a weapon meta. It's Metin2, damn it, we're playing an old-school hard farm server

 

[SnipeSura]

Hi there, Interesting take on everything you've said above, so I'm going to format and try to structure my reply as best as i can!

First of all I want to thank you for promoting the server for so long, I really appreciate it, and we need more of that in the future, so that It attracts more new players which will enjoy the server and play actively.

Now lets talk about classes and how they are balanced here...

"- Sura Weaponary: The absolute backbone of tanking, essential for surviving high-tier maps at the cost of lower overall damage output."


1. Devaluation of the Sura Weaponary: As tanking high-level content has become easily achievable across other classes, the Sura Weaponary has lost its core purpose in the endgame, rendering it almost non-existent at higher levels.

As you've said yourself, I might even add that Sura is practically Immortal. That thing never dies. Now does it have the highest damage output?
No. It will never have higher damage than a warrior. Basically you're willing to sacrifice damage to gain more resistance, in other words I would consider Sura as the best choice and fit for people who want to play casually and push the higher end content and enjoy the game.
Now you may ask: Yeah but I'm gonna have Crap damage. While that Is true, you need to put into consideration that you will invest much less money into getting the perfect gear for a class like a warrior/shaman in order to even consider farming the higher end Content. With a sura you can still enjoy the content of this server, while investing much less into resistance gear, and still being able to progress and farm.

- Warrior: The primary baseline for pure DPS on foot or horseback.

I don't see this as an issue. Since the early Days Warrior was designed to be the farming class. But remember to put into consideration that You will need to invest a lot if you want to build a decent farming warrior for higher content. Usually obtaining that Gear can be really expensive.

- Ninja and Shaman: Classes with strong pvp or support identities, capable of competing in pvm only with specialized setups or under specific conditions.


2. The DPS Discrepancy (Ninja/Shaman vs. Warrior): Due to adjustments in mob/metinstone defenses (dagger and bell resistances) and the mechanics of polymorph (hit rate and attack speeds), ninjas and shamans currently deal disproportionately high damage. In many cases, a ninja or shaman can easily out-damage a warrior in endgame maps, even with inferior alchemy and equipment.

Now this here is a very interesting take.
I suppose that this is strictly pointed towards Deceitful forest, so let's break it down.

-Poly Ninja in Forest:
Is it overpowered? Yes it is.

Currently the strongest class in terms of farming Dusk metins in forest. There is no doubt here. But we need to factor in as well how much gear a poly ninja requires, and how much resistance a poly ninja needs in order to be able to farm Dusk Metins efficiently, also factor in that most of the gear you need in order to be able to even consider trying poly farming, you will have to create it on your own, because it simply doesn't exist on the market, or nobody wants to sell it.

Buuuut... Ding ding ding... It can only Farm Dusk Metins with Poly, and it stops there.

Poly ninja cannot farm Insanity Metins, therefore you cannot Evolve Alraune gear, therefore you will need to search for someone willing to sell you Forest Upgrades, (which mind me, I don't see that happening) and usually at a x3 the normal price, which brings us to a conclusion that a Poly ninja can only farm stones that Have 0 Ranged mobs on them (Arrow + Dodge arrows requirement), and from what i've been told, all future maps involve Ranged mobs, so practically that renders the poly ninja for metins useless.

Next we have Dragon + Healer shamans.
The original idea from back in the days regarding shamans it was for them to be solely meant and used as buff classes.
Wom2 took a different and original approach here, with allowing people who enjoy playing shamans to be able to compete in PVM as well, which i think is totally fine.

From my personal perspective I would put only the healer shaman in the same bracket as the Warrior in terms of farming. With slightly out dpsing warriors in Forest,
But it falls into the same bracket as Warriror Vs Sura. A healer shaman requires near perfect gear in order to be able to resist in forest and to be able to do decent damage at the same time.

If you're asking me, a shaman is harder to equip and gear up, rather than a warrior, and here is why:

Shaman PVM High Level Gear does not simply Exist on the market. Nobody rolls it, Nobody want to sell it. Plus put into consideration that a shaman's main Stat is INT. It is crucial to have it maxed out in order to maximize DPS output, which that puts it in an even harder position in order to obtain gear for a shaman.
So you have 2 choices here: Roll endlessly on weapon/armor and gamble, or pray that someone wants to sell shaman equipment and be ready to pay a higher price than the actual market one.
Like mentioned above in previous replies, Healer+Dragon shaman combo starts to shine only in forest, up until then Warrior is still the supreme class for metin farming.

Regarding dragon shaman, nothing much to be said... it is tankier yes, because of amplified resistance from Blessing when used on-self, but it will not out dps a warrior.
You will simply reach 100% crit easier with less Crit on items and thats it.

Long read I know... but I wanted to share my point of view on everything.

To sum it all up:
I feel like this is enough, there are much more scenarios and example that can be given for each class, regarding pvm wise...but i don't want to make this a big wall of text, it's big enough already.

Yes all their classes have their Weakness and their Strength, but that doesn't mean that we should make solely the warrior a full meta Beast and dominate all other classes. Wom2 Took a different approach on the gameplay and gave it a new look and an opportunity for other "Useless classes" to be able to enjoy pvm content as well.

Keep in mind not everyone wants to play a warrior, and this is why I think all of the current balancing made, is perfectly fine.
It all boils down on a person's play-style and how much time they want to invest into this game. This is a hard core pvm server, and people usually want to stick to 1 or 2 characters, and enjoy the game PVM and PVP wise at the same time.

P.S PLS buff weaponary sura 😂😂

 

[Synesthesia]

Hi there, Interesting take on everything you've said above, so I'm going to format and try to structure my reply as best as i can!

First of all I want to thank you for promoting the server for so long, I really appreciate it, and we need more of that in the future, so that It attracts more new players which will enjoy the server and play actively.

Now lets talk about classes and how they are balanced here...


As you've said yourself, I might even add that Sura is practically Immortal. That thing never dies. Now does it have the highest damage output?
No. It will never have higher damage than a warrior. Basically you're willing to sacrifice damage to gain more resistance, in other words I would consider Sura as the best choice and fit for people who want to play casually and push the higher end content and enjoy the game.
Now you may ask: Yeah but I'm gonna have Crap damage. While that Is true, you need to put into consideration that you will invest much less money into getting the perfect gear for a class like a warrior/shaman in order to even consider farming the higher end Content. With a sura you can still enjoy the content of this server, while investing much less into resistance gear, and still being able to progress and farm.


I don't see this as an issue. Since the early Days Warrior was designed to be the farming class. But remember to put into consideration that You will need to invest a lot if you want to build a decent farming warrior for higher content. Usually obtaining that Gear can be really expensive.


Now this here is a very interesting take.
I suppose that this is strictly pointed towards Deceitful forest, so let's break it down.

-Poly Ninja in Forest:
Is it overpowered? Yes it is.

Currently the strongest class in terms of farming Dusk metins in forest. There is no doubt here. But we need to factor in as well how much gear a poly ninja requires, and how much resistance a poly ninja needs in order to be able to farm Dusk Metins efficiently, also factor in that most of the gear you need in order to be able to even consider trying poly farming, you will have to create it on your own, because it simply doesn't exist on the market, or nobody wants to sell it.

Buuuut... Ding ding ding... It can only Farm Dusk Metins with Poly, and it stops there.

Poly ninja cannot farm Insanity Metins, therefore you cannot Evolve Alraune gear, therefore you will need to search for someone willing to sell you Forest Upgrades, (which mind me, I don't see that happening) and usually at a x3 the normal price, which brings us to a conclusion that a Poly ninja can only farm stones that Have 0 Ranged mobs on them (Arrow + Dodge arrows requirement), and from what i've been told, all future maps involve Ranged mobs, so practically that renders the poly ninja for metins useless.

Next we have Dragon + Healer shamans.
The original idea from back in the days regarding shamans it was for them to be solely meant and used as buff classes.
Wom2 took a different and original approach here, with allowing people who enjoy playing shamans to be able to compete in PVM as well, which i think is totally fine.

From my personal perspective I would put only the healer shaman in the same bracket as the Warrior in terms of farming. With slightly out dpsing warriors in Forest,
But it falls into the same bracket as Warriror Vs Sura. A healer shaman requires near perfect gear in order to be able to resist in forest and to be able to do decent damage at the same time.

If you're asking me, a shaman is harder to equip and gear up, rather than a warrior, and here is why:

Shaman PVM High Level Gear does not simply Exist on the market. Nobody rolls it, Nobody want to sell it. Plus put into consideration that a shaman's main Stat is INT. It is crucial to have it maxed out in order to maximize DPS output, which that puts it in an even harder position in order to obtain gear for a shaman.
So you have 2 choices here: Roll endlessly on weapon/armor and gamble, or pray that someone wants to sell shaman equipment and be ready to pay a higher price than the actual market one.
Like mentioned above in previous replies, Healer+Dragon shaman combo starts to shine only in forest, up until then Warrior is still the supreme class for metin farming.

Regarding dragon shaman, nothing much to be said... it is tankier yes, because of amplified resistance from Blessing when used on-self, but it will not out dps a warrior.
You will simply reach 100% crit easier with less Crit on items and thats it.

Long read I know... but I wanted to share my point of view on everything.

To sum it all up:
I feel like this is enough, there are much more scenarios and example that can be given for each class, regarding pvm wise...but i don't want to make this a big wall of text, it's big enough already.

Yes all their classes have their Weakness and their Strength, but that doesn't mean that we should make solely the warrior a full meta Beast and dominate all other classes. Wom2 Took a different approach on the gameplay and gave it a new look and an opportunity for other "Useless classes" to be able to enjoy pvm content as well.

Keep in mind not everyone wants to play a warrior, and this is why I think all of the current balancing made, is perfectly fine.
It all boils down on a person's play-style and how much time they want to invest into this game. This is a hard core pvm server, and people usually want to stick to 1 or 2 characters, and enjoy the game PVM and PVP wise at the same time.

P.S PLS buff weaponary sura 😂😂

Thanks for the detailed reply! I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective, but respectfully, several of your technical assumptions about endgame mechanics and class balance simply do not hold up in practice:

- Market Availability is NOT Balance: saying that ninja or shaman gear is hard to find on the market or expensive to craft is an economic factor, not a gameplay balance factor. In an endgame hard-farm server, dedicated players will craft their own gear regardless of market shortages. Once that gear exists, a class doing disproportionate damage creates a permanent structural imbalance.

- The “distance mobs / dusk metins only" fallacy: Claiming that a Ninja is restricted only to dusk metins makes no technical sense. All endgame metins follow the same core damage logic. Warriors do not possess defense skills to tank ranged mobs; they simply add arrow resistance and dodge arrow on their gear. A ninja doing the exact same defensive stats will survive just as well while outputting far higher DPS.

- Polymorph Hit-Rate Mechanics: the issue with poly isn't just raw damage scaling, but hit-rate animation mechanics. Certain transformation marbles provide (just for the ninja) literally double the hits per second compared to a warrior attack (in poly) speed/animation. When you combine that hit-frequency with lower Metin dagger resistances, the DPS gap becomes absurd.

- The Reality of Investment (DPS Comparison): The idea that ninja require massive investment to outperform warrior is factually incorrect. I can speak from direct testing and experience: a level 105 ninja attacking on foot (without even polymorphing), using a cl1 ruby and without an endgame map pet (because u dont need it) can out-damage a fully set up warrior using a CL4 ruby attacking from a pet. When a class with lower-tier alchemy and zero pet investment beats a higher-invested warrior from the ground, the base damage scaling is fundamentally broken.

- Shaman defence vs. warrior reality: Saying shamans struggle to survive compared to warriors ignores basic item stats. The final shaman armor actually provides 54 more base defense than the armor of any other class. Meanwhile, the warrior is actually the squishiest class by design because using Berserk forces you to take 15% increased damage.

At the end of the day, it's not about making warriors untouchable or stopping other classes from enjoying PVE. Diversity is great, but when support or agility classes have higher base armor, self-buffs, require lower alchemy/pet investment, hit twice as fast in transformation, and still out-damage the primary PVE class both on foot and in polymorph, that isn't "class diversity" it's a broken scaling system. Balancing should always be measured at maximum potential performance under equal investment, not by market convenience.

 

[SnipeSura]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective, but respectfully, several of your technical assumptions about endgame mechanics and class balance simply do not hold up in practice:

- Market Availability is NOT Balance: saying that ninja or shaman gear is hard to find on the market or expensive to craft is an economic factor, not a gameplay balance factor. In an endgame hard-farm server, dedicated players will craft their own gear regardless of market shortages. Once that gear exists, a class doing disproportionate damage creates a permanent structural imbalance.

- The “distance mobs / dusk metins only" fallacy: Claiming that a Ninja is restricted only to dusk metins makes no technical sense. All endgame metins follow the same core damage logic. Warriors do not possess defense skills to tank ranged mobs; they simply add arrow resistance and dodge arrow on their gear. A ninja doing the exact same defensive stats will survive just as well while outputting far higher DPS.

- Polymorph Hit-Rate Mechanics: the issue with poly isn't just raw damage scaling, but hit-rate animation mechanics. Certain transformation marbles provide (just for the ninja) literally double the hits per second compared to a warrior attack (in poly) speed/animation. When you combine that hit-frequency with lower Metin dagger resistances, the DPS gap becomes absurd.

- The Reality of Investment (DPS Comparison): The idea that ninja require massive investment to outperform warrior is factually incorrect. I can speak from direct testing and experience: a level 105 ninja attacking on foot (without even polymorphing), using a cl1 ruby and without an endgame map pet (because u dont need it) can out-damage a fully set up warrior using a CL4 ruby attacking from a pet. When a class with lower-tier alchemy and zero pet investment beats a higher-invested warrior from the ground, the base damage scaling is fundamentally broken.

- Shaman defence vs. warrior reality: Saying shamans struggle to survive compared to warriors ignores basic item stats. The final shaman armor actually provides 54 more base defense than the armor of any other class. Meanwhile, the warrior is actually the squishiest class by design because using Berserk forces you to take 15% increased damage.

At the end of the day, it's not about making warriors untouchable or stopping other classes from enjoying PVE. Diversity is great, but when support or agility classes have higher base armor, self-buffs, require lower alchemy/pet investment, hit twice as fast in transformation, and still out-damage the primary PVE class both on foot and in polymorph, that isn't "class diversity" it's a broken scaling system. Balancing should always be measured at maximum potential performance under equal investment, not by market convenience.

I really want to see the day where a Poly ninja farms insanity. Until then I wont believe it.

And regarding Shaman/ninja outdpsing Warriors in forest... we're talking strictly here about endgame, Up until Forest, Warrior dominates all fields and all maps.
Not to mention that Shamans and ninja's only shine on Bosses in Forest and Metinstones.
In other words what I'm trying to say here is that you're gonna have a much harder time progressing up until forest without a warrior/Sura. So basically Even if current Market availability is not part of the balancing, you're gonna have a much harder journey getting to Forest without a warrior Main farmer.
So we're coming down again to the Meta. Make Warrior/sura, Farm gear and enough yang, Swap to something else if you want more damage in end game, which again its about play-style and time investment into the server.

Also we're comparing here only metin stones in forest at the moment, if we take into factor Any Dungeon or Content 95% of the time you will need a warrior in order to complete that, otherwise you will lack the damage.

At the end that is my point of view and opinion, doesn't have to be true or correct. It's just my take on how I see things on the server currently.
All in all every class and spec have their own field where they are strong, and weak at the same time.

Note. Warrior with Full event push like Pierce boost etc... Will always be the highest Top possible damage in the current balancing of the server.
Would also like Opinions from others as well, to see their point of view on this topic.

 

[Moozak]

- The “distance mobs / dusk metins only" fallacy: Claiming that a Ninja is restricted only to dusk metins makes no technical sense. All endgame metins follow the same core damage logic. Warriors do not possess defense skills to tank ranged mobs; they simply add arrow resistance and dodge arrow on their gear. A ninja doing the exact same defensive stats will survive just as well while outputting far higher DPS.

Bro , you do know that while pollymorphed you lose about 80% of your defenses right ?


have you ever tried farming in polly with your war at insanity ? You think that is possible ?

 

[aleextoma1234]

Maybe if you stop using nemere accs at dusk metins, and start using htb and htn at least you ll do some damage

 

[Moozak]

Certain transformation marbles provide (just for the ninja)

This sounds like a bug not a feature , report it

And my 3rd point and my last :


Shamans basic attack unmounted is unusable and this basically restricts shamans as well
(Try doing meley with as many cl5 shamans as you would like it would still be dreadful)


Ps:not talking about suras on this post because everybody knows that sura is a joke 🤣

 

[Tekno]

Ninjas were able to farm fireland -> poly tp nerf
Ninjas were able to farm baroness (with poly) -> poly nerf (time passes while you're in char change)
Ninjas thrived in helia -> poly nerf
Ninjas could farm beta stones -> arrows resis to stone + various poly changes (time + tp)

3. Chasing the Meta: When PVE efficiency shifts dramatically, players no longer choose classes based on playstyle preference or traditional roles. Instead, they feel forced to repeatedly roll whatever class is currently overtuned just to keep up with farm efficiency.

You see, there's people who chase meta, but then there's people who can minmax the right classes to create metas, and yeah then there's people who complain when others are keen to dive deeper and and explore the game that was intentionally re-worked to create opportunities for various classes at various level stages.

 

[Synesthesia]

I really want to see the day where a Poly ninja farms insanity. Until then I wont believe it.

And regarding Shaman/ninja outdpsing Warriors in forest... we're talking strictly here about endgame, Up until Forest, Warrior dominates all fields and all maps.
Not to mention that Shamans and ninja's only shine on Bosses in Forest and Metinstones.
In other words what I'm trying to say here is that you're gonna have a much harder time progressing up until forest without a warrior/Sura. So basically Even if current Market availability is not part of the balancing, you're gonna have a much harder journey getting to Forest without a warrior Main farmer.
So we're coming down again to the Meta. Make Warrior/sura, Farm gear and enough yang, Swap to something else if you want more damage in end game, which again its about play-style and time investment into the server.

Also we're comparing here only metin stones in forest at the moment, if we take into factor Any Dungeon or Content 95% of the time you will need a warrior in order to complete that, otherwise you will lack the damage.

At the end that is my point of view and opinion, doesn't have to be true or correct. It's just my take on how I see things on the server currently.
All in all every class and spec have their own field where they are strong, and weak at the same time.

Note. Warrior with Full event push like Pierce boost etc... Will always be the highest Top possible damage in the current balancing of the server.
Would also like Opinions from others as well, to see their point of view on this topic.

You actually just highlighted the core issue yourself: forcing a player to play Warrior for 90 levels as a "stepping stone" only to feel compelled to swap classes at endgame is fundamentally bad design for an Old-Style / Hard-Farm server.

Here is why that logic doesn't hold up for dedicated players:

• The "Class Switch" Meta is Toxic for Progression: A player shouldn't be forced to treat a Warrior as a throwaway main just to reach level 95+, only to abandon it because other classes magically take over the endgame DPS. The identity of an Old-Style server lies in long-term loyalty to your main character and rewarding that investment at every stage of the game not forcing a class swap at the finish line.
  
  
• Dungeons vs. Daily Map Farming: Claiming Warriors are necessary for dungeons doesn't mean they dominate all other content. In fact, specific end-game content already belongs to other classes: bm suras are essential for nemere, ninja for blue death and magic classes are by far the best choice for world bosses. Warriors don't hold a monopoly on high-level content, so allowing other classes to also trivialize open-map metin farming completely strips the warrior of the primary role it is supposed to excel at natively.
  
  
• The "Event Push" Paradox: You mentioned that a Warrior with full event pushes (extra pierce, event items, etc.) can reach top DPS. That actually proves my point: a warrior has to pay a premium in event boosts, high-tier alchemy, and extra items just to match or slightly surpass what a ninja/shaman achieves with standard setups. A class shouldn't require extra external boosts just to perform its primary role.

At the end of the day, class diversity should mean every class has its own specialized role throughout the entire game, rather than creating a system where you farm on one class for 3 months just so you can actually play the game on another.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective, and like you said, let's see what the rest of the community and Staff think about this direction!

 

[Synesthesia]

Bro , you do know that while pollymorphed you lose about 80% of your defenses right ?


have you ever tried farming in polly with your war at insanity ? You think that is possible ?

Bro, you are completely missing the core point of the argument here. Nobody is saying a Warrior should farm Insanity Metins while polymorphed. Polymorph is just one piece of the puzzle (and whether someone enjoys polymorph mechanics or not is purely subjective). The actual issue is baseline class DPS scaling.

As I mentioned before, the core problem is that a Ninja attacking on foot, running lower-tier alchemy (e.g., CL1 Ruby vs. a CL4) and without needing an endgame map pet, can still out-damage a heavily invested warrior attacking from the mount.

 

[Synesthesia]

Maybe if you stop using nemere accs at dusk metins, and start using htb and htn at least you ll do some damage

Sorry? I didnt get you. Who is the guy who use nemere accessory at dusk metins? ahahha

 

[Synesthesia]

injas were able to farm fireland -> poly tp nerf
Ninjas were able to farm baroness (with poly) -> poly nerf (time passes while you're in char change)
Ninjas thrived in helia -> poly nerf
Ninjas could farm beta stones -> arrows resis to stone + various poly changes (time + tp)

Thanks for bringing up the history of adjustments! However, there is a crucial distinction you are overlooking: they never actually nerfed the ninja as class itself they only nerfed the polymorph mechanic.

This distinction actually reinforces my point:

• Poly Adjustments ≠ Class Balance: Tweaking transformation durations, character-swap timers, or mob resistances against marbles affects the general polymorph mechanic, but leaves the ninja's native baseline scaling completely untouched. This is precisely why a ninja on foot (without even using a marble) can still out-damage a primary PVE class in the endgame today.
• Min-Maxing vs. Broken Baseline Scaling: Min-maxing is about pushing a class to its absolute ceiling under equal investment. When a level 105 ninja on foot, using an CL1 Ruby and zero map-pet investment, out-damages a heavily invested Warrior running a CL4 Ruby and full pet setups, that isn't "clever min-maxing" it’s a clear flaw in base damage scaling.
• Class Opportunities vs. Role Overlap: Creating space for every class to enjoy PvM content is great design. However, when an Support/PVP-oriented class naturally surpasses the designated heavy-PvE class on foot while requiring a fraction of the alchemy and pet investment, it stops being "class diversity" and becomes an unaddressed balance oversight.

And honestly, let’s talk about Shamans as well are we seriously fine with the fact that a shaman with a equal gear investment can out-damage a warrior on dusk metins??

We are talking about a class designed around support, buffs, and utility doing higher raw DPS on endgame metinstones than the designated heavy-PVE class. Just step back for a second and look at how absurd that sounds from a balance and class-identity perspective.
When support and agility classes naturally out-damage the primary melee farmer under equal (or even lower) setups, the baseline system is clearly broken.

 

[Synesthesia]

This sounds like a bug not a feature , report it

And my 3rd point and my last :


Shamans basic attack unmounted is unusable and this basically restricts shamans as well
(Try doing meley with as many cl5 shamans as you would like it would still be dreadful)


Ps:not talking about suras on this post because everybody knows that sura is a joke 🤣

You actually just proved my entire point with these statements:

• The Sura Situation: Saying "Sura is a joke 🤣" literally highlights the exact issue I raised in my original post. On an Old-Style / Hard-Farm server, a core historical class should never be reduced to a running joke that becomes useless in the endgame. The fact that the community accepts Sura Weaponry being obsolete as a meme shows how far class identity has slipped.
• Shaman Utility vs. Open-Map DPS: Mentioning that Shamans can't attack on foot in Meley is bringing up a specific dungeon niche. The core problem remains: on open-map Metins (like Enchanted Forest), a support class under equal gear investment should never out-damage the primary melee farmer. One specific dungeon scenario doesn't justify overtuned open-map DPS.

Thank you for agreeing that the double-hit is broken and that Suras need serious attention that's exactly why this thread was made!

 

[Tekno]

Thanks for bringing up the history of adjustments! However, there is a crucial distinction you are overlooking: they never actually nerfed the ninja as class itself they only nerfed the polymorph mechanic.

A class that used to heavily rely on the poly mechanic loses its pvm edge in almost all the stages of the game but according to you it's never got any nerfs. It's like they halved the AV in bells and you would still argue the change was an 'overall mechanic' tweak rather than a tool to nerfing a class. Wake up.

Also still referring to your quote:
'Adjusted polymorphed ninja resistances; now takes more damage as level increases.' - Patch 1.0.7.0

[*]Min-Maxing vs. Broken Baseline Scaling: Min-maxing is about pushing a class to its absolute ceiling under equal investment. When a level 105 ninja on foot, using an CL1 Ruby and zero map-pet investment, out-damages a heavily invested Warrior running a CL4 Ruby and full pet setups, that isn't "clever min-maxing" it’s a clear flaw in base damage scaling.

You ever thought it wasn't a flaw and was intended?
Go farm low lvl as a ninja.
Then go farm mid lvl as a ninja.
Then start again as a weapon sura and do the same.
You compare people with decent capital who can bootstrap a new char in the matter of Days/Weeks to people are just casuals and don't have the time nor energy to do that and would rather go down the road of chill farming as a sura and progressing at their own pace.

[*]Class Opportunities vs. Role Overlap: Creating space for every class to enjoy PvM content is great design. However, when an Support/PVP-oriented class naturally surpasses the designated heavy-PvE class on foot while requiring a fraction of the alchemy and pet investment, it stops being "class diversity" and becomes an unaddressed balance oversight.

It's just the way it is out here.
You could argue body warrior is a heavy pvm class but you've prolly seen what a body war could do at the GT.
Have you seen what your weapon sura's dispel can do in pvp/opvp? How it's normal attacks have an interesting feature of locking people down in place even when the attacked char is in theory outside the hitbox?

We are talking about a class designed around support, buffs, and utility doing higher raw DPS on endgame metinstones than the designated heavy-PVE class. Just step back for a second and look at how absurd that sounds from a balance and class-identity perspective.
When support and agility classes naturally out-damage the primary melee farmer under equal (or even lower) setups, the baseline system is clearly broken.

You realise the idea wom has stood for was to make the classes more versatile than they were originally meant to be? Your 'support' classes aren't meant only for buffing. Healer's dmg enchant is twice as effective when casted on yourself, and dragon mages buffs are also stronger.

Also please refrain from using AI to talk to me and try to use your own words else I'll have to ignore the future replies

 

[SnipeSura]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective, but respectfully, several of your technical assumptions about endgame mechanics and class balance simply do not hold up in practice:

- Market Availability is NOT Balance: saying that ninja or shaman gear is hard to find on the market or expensive to craft is an economic factor, not a gameplay balance factor. In an endgame hard-farm server, dedicated players will craft their own gear regardless of market shortages. Once that gear exists, a class doing disproportionate damage creates a permanent structural imbalance.

- The “distance mobs / dusk metins only" fallacy: Claiming that a Ninja is restricted only to dusk metins makes no technical sense. All endgame metins follow the same core damage logic. Warriors do not possess defense skills to tank ranged mobs; they simply add arrow resistance and dodge arrow on their gear. A ninja doing the exact same defensive stats will survive just as well while outputting far higher DPS.

- Polymorph Hit-Rate Mechanics: the issue with poly isn't just raw damage scaling, but hit-rate animation mechanics. Certain transformation marbles provide (just for the ninja) literally double the hits per second compared to a warrior attack (in poly) speed/animation. When you combine that hit-frequency with lower Metin dagger resistances, the DPS gap becomes absurd.

- The Reality of Investment (DPS Comparison): The idea that ninja require massive investment to outperform warrior is factually incorrect. I can speak from direct testing and experience: a level 105 ninja attacking on foot (without even polymorphing), using a cl1 ruby and without an endgame map pet (because u dont need it) can out-damage a fully set up warrior using a CL4 ruby attacking from a pet. When a class with lower-tier alchemy and zero pet investment beats a higher-invested warrior from the ground, the base damage scaling is fundamentally broken.

- Shaman defence vs. warrior reality: Saying shamans struggle to survive compared to warriors ignores basic item stats. The final shaman armor actually provides 54 more base defense than the armor of any other class. Meanwhile, the warrior is actually the squishiest class by design because using Berserk forces you to take 15% increased damage.

At the end of the day, it's not about making warriors untouchable or stopping other classes from enjoying PVE. Diversity is great, but when support or agility classes have higher base armor, self-buffs, require lower alchemy/pet investment, hit twice as fast in transformation, and still out-damage the primary PVE class both on foot and in polymorph, that isn't "class diversity" it's a broken scaling system. Balancing should always be measured at maximum potential performance under equal investment, not by market convenience.

I switched to sura weaponary realized at level 105 that it wasn't cutting it anymore, and moved to body warrior.. now, finding out that ninjas and shamans out-DPS Warriors?

These are your words exactly. Swapping from 1 Char to a different to become a main farmer, Totally contradicting everything you're trying to say, and again it all comes down to the player's play style, availability and what are their goals in this server. You as well could have done the research how warrior performs in endgame, how ninjas and shamans perform in end game, simply through opening the in-game Wiki, or asking around players who have already farmed that content for advice.

The "Event Push" Paradox: You mentioned that a Warrior with full event pushes (extra pierce, event items, etc.) can reach top DPS. That actually proves my point: a warrior has to pay a premium in event boosts, high-tier alchemy, and extra items just to match or slightly surpass what a ninja/shaman achieves with standard setups. A class shouldn't require extra external boosts just to perform its primary role.

Those so called premiums you are calling are obtainable in-game through events, farming, and buying them from other players with yang. Let's not act like we're all not waiting for Event push in order to be able to maximize our DPS output and resistances... please

• Dungeons vs. Daily Map Farming: Claiming Warriors are necessary for dungeons doesn't mean they dominate all other content. In fact, specific end-game content already belongs to other classes: bm suras are essential for nemere, ninja for blue death and magic classes are by far the best choice for world bosses. Warriors don't hold a monopoly on high-level content, so allowing other classes to also trivialize open-map metin farming completely strips the warrior of the primary role it is supposed to excel at natively.

Body warrior can do Nemere.
Mental warrior can do Nemere.
Weaponary sura can do Nemere.
Dragon + Healer Shaman can do Nemere.
Same goes for both ninja classes.
Is it gonna be efficient? No it wont, which brings us down to the reason why people make BM suras for nemere...

Also regarding Blue death... if at lv105 you already don't have a geared shaman as a 2nd attacker... then i do not know what to say...
The dungeon is completely Doable with all classes.
But i would like to see you do Meley without a warrior.

At the end of the day, class diversity should mean every class has its own specialized role throughout the entire game, rather than creating a system where you farm on one class for 3 months just so you can actually play the game on another.

To sum it all up... with all due respect, but you're trying to portray body warrior as completely useless in terms of farming end-game content... which is totally wrong.
I already gave enough arguments and points why I think that things are balanced at the moment... all classes and specs have their weakness and strengths, but asking to nerf everything else, because warrior gets outperformed in Forest, is just totally unfair towards everyone else that wants to enjoy the game and play it.

You realise the idea wom has stood for was to make the classes more versatile than they were originally meant to be? Your 'support' classes aren't meant only for buffing. Healer's dmg enchant is twice as effective when casted on yourself, and dragon mages buffs are also stronger.

Like Tekno says here, Wom2 Offers a diversity option for everyone to be able to play and enjoy the game. We already mentioned that every other content revolves around a body warior already, which again, can be done with other classes as well, but not as much as efficiently as a body warrior (Besides sura, pls buff 5% dmg xD)

Again I am gonna repeat my self for the last time, It all comes down to a person's play style, their goals, and the time they want to invest into this game. If a certain class outperforms a class in one piece of content, that doesn't mean that it should get nerfed to the ground. If we look at this from that perspective, than lets completely Nerf BM suras for nemere, make it useless, since it outperforms every other class ye?...

Also please cut it with the AI replies. It feels totally unfair towards someone that actually sits down, reads everything, and spends time to write an actual reply. Starting and engaging into a discussion with AI texts is not cool. It shows a lack of respect towards everyone else

 

[Ozzy]

You actually just proved my entire point with these statements:

• The Sura Situation: Saying "Sura is a joke 🤣" literally highlights the exact issue I raised in my original post. On an Old-Style / Hard-Farm server, a core historical class should never be reduced to a running joke that becomes useless in the endgame. The fact that the community accepts Sura Weaponry being obsolete as a meme shows how far class identity has slipped.
• Shaman Utility vs. Open-Map DPS: Mentioning that Shamans can't attack on foot in Meley is bringing up a specific dungeon niche. The core problem remains: on open-map Metins (like Enchanted Forest), a support class under equal gear investment should never out-damage the primary melee farmer. One specific dungeon scenario doesn't justify overtuned open-map DPS.

Thank you for agreeing that the double-hit is broken and that Suras need serious attention that's exactly why this thread was made!

Jaren, your base of argument itself is wrong. Saying that the dyscrepancy is too big for ninja shaman..do you realise this only happens in 1 map? You cant assume to create *the best class* at lvl 1 for farming and then have it blossom for the WHOLE game until you quit. Shamans and ninjas are very niche until 105. some bosses and dungeons. Please refrain from considering Warrior inferior . As snipe said, Warrior can farm absolutely anything. any dungeon, any stone place, etc. Ninja for example cant farm insanity WHICH IS HALF OF THE MAP. yes he is better than every class in dusk, but you cant expect warrior to be the best class absolutely everywhere. thats why we got diversity. BM for nemere, Double shamans are actually resistant and good damage, BUT MOSTLY JUST IN DECEITFUL.
there are several trends that go away and come... nothing will stay the same... people adapt..gameplay adapts... its so much harder to build a good pvm ninja / shaman due to lack of market availability which you said is not correct... it is very correct... warriors can find anything.. shamans and ninjas need to roll themselves... so please if you want to farm just forest.. quit your warrior... or keep it...warrior is the most wellrounded class.. may not be the best in forest but it is well rounded and usable everywhere... as for sura weaponary he is very good early game .. you will see when they add meadows of tranquility... suras wont run from metins and everyone else will... its all about using your class IN THE RIGHT PLACE.
and having warrior do PVM monopoly is WRONG. let diversity exist.